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	<title>Comments on: Clausura &#8217;08: Round 15 scores and scorers</title>
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	<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/</link>
	<description>More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at</description>
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		<title>By: Давыд</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-3116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Давыд]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-3116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Спасибочки, что просветили. Никогда бы не подумал :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Спасибочки, что просветили. Никогда бы не подумал :)</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No worries Sam. You&#039;ve got it spot on. 

So...officially...1983 was the worst year in the history of football in Argentina. 

The &quot;Promedios&quot; were installed. 

Racing got relegated.

And Independiente won the league.

A tough year to start 1st grade in an elementary school in Avellaneda with half of my class supporting El Rojo! The story of my life! But the more Racing suffer, the more I love it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries Sam. You&#8217;ve got it spot on. </p>
<p>So&#8230;officially&#8230;1983 was the worst year in the history of football in Argentina. </p>
<p>The &#8220;Promedios&#8221; were installed. </p>
<p>Racing got relegated.</p>
<p>And Independiente won the league.</p>
<p>A tough year to start 1st grade in an elementary school in Avellaneda with half of my class supporting El Rojo! The story of my life! But the more Racing suffer, the more I love it.</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, got it. 

Here&#039;s the link: 

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesa/arghist-pro1980s.html (scroll down to 1983 and see the table and the explanation below. It was an average of the two seasons and not the three -as it is these days-). 

I was wrong regarding Nueva Chicago&#039;s final placing in 1983 (they were 4th from bottom) but I was definitely right about River Plate! 

They should have been relegated instead of Racing Club. The other Racing that you see in that 1983 standings is from Córdoba. Another Racing. 

As a curious note: take a look at the top-scorers table and see if you know anybody from there! ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, got it. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the link: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.rsssf.com/tablesa/arghist-pro1980s.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.rsssf.com/tablesa/arghist-pro1980s.html</a> (scroll down to 1983 and see the table and the explanation below. It was an average of the two seasons and not the three -as it is these days-). </p>
<p>I was wrong regarding Nueva Chicago&#8217;s final placing in 1983 (they were 4th from bottom) but I was definitely right about River Plate! </p>
<p>They should have been relegated instead of Racing Club. The other Racing that you see in that 1983 standings is from Córdoba. Another Racing. </p>
<p>As a curious note: take a look at the top-scorers table and see if you know anybody from there! ;)</p>
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		<title>By: hastaelgolsiempre</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1666</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hastaelgolsiempre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seba, I got it a little wrong, I apologise. I first read about the origins of the Promedio when my Spanish was far worse than it is now! Let&#039;s set it straight:

The system was brought in 1983 to prevent &#039;big&#039; sides going down after SAN LORENZO got relegated in 1981. In 1983, the system saved River - who would&#039;ve gone down had it not been changed that year - but relegated Racing, who as Seba says, finished above River over the whole of the 1983 season.

So, River&#039;s and San Lorenzo&#039;s fault. Sorry Seba!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seba, I got it a little wrong, I apologise. I first read about the origins of the Promedio when my Spanish was far worse than it is now! Let&#8217;s set it straight:</p>
<p>The system was brought in 1983 to prevent &#8216;big&#8217; sides going down after SAN LORENZO got relegated in 1981. In 1983, the system saved River &#8211; who would&#8217;ve gone down had it not been changed that year &#8211; but relegated Racing, who as Seba says, finished above River over the whole of the 1983 season.</p>
<p>So, River&#8217;s and San Lorenzo&#8217;s fault. Sorry Seba!</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1665</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m quoting you here, Sam: &quot;but it’s Racing’s and River’s fault for having useless seasons a couple of decades ago and ‘forcing’ the AFA into coming up with this system to stop the big boys going down!&quot;

Errr...actually it was River alone! Racing were victims of the new relegation system. River finished second from bottom in 1983 and Racing were 4th from bottom and still got relegated together with Nueva Chicago (the bottom team). 

And I must add that Boca was having terrible seasons too and were favoured by the new system. 

One day (maybe later today) I&#039;ll back my sayings with the proper sources and info (not very hard to find, but I have to run now). 

The AFA favouring Racing? Hmmm...think again!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m quoting you here, Sam: &#8220;but it’s Racing’s and River’s fault for having useless seasons a couple of decades ago and ‘forcing’ the AFA into coming up with this system to stop the big boys going down!&#8221;</p>
<p>Errr&#8230;actually it was River alone! Racing were victims of the new relegation system. River finished second from bottom in 1983 and Racing were 4th from bottom and still got relegated together with Nueva Chicago (the bottom team). </p>
<p>And I must add that Boca was having terrible seasons too and were favoured by the new system. </p>
<p>One day (maybe later today) I&#8217;ll back my sayings with the proper sources and info (not very hard to find, but I have to run now). </p>
<p>The AFA favouring Racing? Hmmm&#8230;think again!</p>
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		<title>By: hastaelgolsiempre</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1664</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hastaelgolsiempre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 21:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1664</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Haha... keep this up and I&#039;ll have to give you a regular spot, Seba!

Your initial post with the link to the &#039;season-long&#039; league table has now gone up, by the way.

Personally I don&#039;t mind the fact the &#039;short&#039; championships, those aren&#039;t the biggest problem. The big problems, as you say, are how qualification for the Copas, and relegation are sorted out. Those should be done using one, season-long table, whether that&#039;s separate from the (two) championships, or part of a new (one championship) season.

This will begin to be sorted out in part when the winners of this year&#039;s Apertura go directly into the 2009 Libertadores - so the gap will be just 2 months, not 14 as previously. This, for those who&#039;ve forgotten, was one of the new regulations introduced by AFA at the start of the season - I reported it here:

http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2007/08/01/new-regulations/

It wouldn&#039;t surprise me if the championship switches to one season-long (probably February to November / December) championship in the next couple of years. But if it doesn&#039;t, the Copa qualification at least will make slightly more sense from this year forth. Of course, the ridiculous fashion relegation is sorted in may not change - but it&#039;s Racing&#039;s and River&#039;s fault for having useless seasons a couple of decades ago and &#039;forcing&#039; the AFA into coming up with this system to stop the big boys going down!

Oh, and Johnny, think of &#039;La Academia&#039; as a similar kind of nickname to West Ham being referred to as &#039;The Academy&#039; in England. A nice way of playing and they&#039;ve been a sort of &#039;finishing school&#039; for a lot of greats in the past of the national team.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha&#8230; keep this up and I&#8217;ll have to give you a regular spot, Seba!</p>
<p>Your initial post with the link to the &#8216;season-long&#8217; league table has now gone up, by the way.</p>
<p>Personally I don&#8217;t mind the fact the &#8216;short&#8217; championships, those aren&#8217;t the biggest problem. The big problems, as you say, are how qualification for the Copas, and relegation are sorted out. Those should be done using one, season-long table, whether that&#8217;s separate from the (two) championships, or part of a new (one championship) season.</p>
<p>This will begin to be sorted out in part when the winners of this year&#8217;s Apertura go directly into the 2009 Libertadores &#8211; so the gap will be just 2 months, not 14 as previously. This, for those who&#8217;ve forgotten, was one of the new regulations introduced by AFA at the start of the season &#8211; I reported it here:</p>
<p><a href="http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2007/08/01/new-regulations/" rel="nofollow">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2007/08/01/new-regulations/</a></p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t surprise me if the championship switches to one season-long (probably February to November / December) championship in the next couple of years. But if it doesn&#8217;t, the Copa qualification at least will make slightly more sense from this year forth. Of course, the ridiculous fashion relegation is sorted in may not change &#8211; but it&#8217;s Racing&#8217;s and River&#8217;s fault for having useless seasons a couple of decades ago and &#8216;forcing&#8217; the AFA into coming up with this system to stop the big boys going down!</p>
<p>Oh, and Johnny, think of &#8216;La Academia&#8217; as a similar kind of nickname to West Ham being referred to as &#8216;The Academy&#8217; in England. A nice way of playing and they&#8217;ve been a sort of &#8216;finishing school&#8217; for a lot of greats in the past of the national team.</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[See Justin, that&#039;s exactly my point. Why do we have 2 tournaments per season? Why? Why?????

The explanation given when they introduced this ridiculous format was: &quot;It&#039;ll be more exciting and any team could win it. If a team win 3 in a row then they are suddenly contenders&quot;. 

Well...what about: &quot;if a team losses three in a row they are suddenly out of everything by week 5!&quot;????

People bought that and there were a lot of fans actually very happy by this change. The media played (and still plays) a big part in hyping up the fans and the farce continues. 

Then they complain about how our teams struggle in the Copa Libertadores and they seem to ignore that in big part is due to the ridiculous format we are victims of. 

Let&#039;s take Brazil for example. They too have a ridiculous format in the shape of those estaduais (state) tournaments. They start their seasons early in the year (late January, early February) and they play the state championship in which the big fishes from Sao Paulo, Rio, Belo Horizonte, Porto Alegre, have to face really weak opposition and they always play the finals between them. For example in Rio. Flamengo, Botafogo, Fluminense and Vasco Da Gama have shared the title every year since 1966 when minnows Bangú won it. 

Those state championship push the start of their Brazilian League to late April-early May (just when everything is finished in Europe).

Then all their stars leave in the European summer transfer market and most of the teams lose up to 75% of their starters. 

Talking to a Brazilian journalist when I was in Rio, he told me the magazine Placar has to publish 2 Brazilian League Guides. One at the start of the season and the other one after the first half because of how many changes they have in every squad list. 

Not good at all. But I prefer that to the system we have in Argentina. 

One tournament. One champion. Home and away fixtures against EVERY rival. And the champions with the best teams go to the Libertadores inmediately after they qualify and not 16 months later.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See Justin, that&#8217;s exactly my point. Why do we have 2 tournaments per season? Why? Why?????</p>
<p>The explanation given when they introduced this ridiculous format was: &#8220;It&#8217;ll be more exciting and any team could win it. If a team win 3 in a row then they are suddenly contenders&#8221;. </p>
<p>Well&#8230;what about: &#8220;if a team losses three in a row they are suddenly out of everything by week 5!&#8221;????</p>
<p>People bought that and there were a lot of fans actually very happy by this change. The media played (and still plays) a big part in hyping up the fans and the farce continues. </p>
<p>Then they complain about how our teams struggle in the Copa Libertadores and they seem to ignore that in big part is due to the ridiculous format we are victims of. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take Brazil for example. They too have a ridiculous format in the shape of those estaduais (state) tournaments. They start their seasons early in the year (late January, early February) and they play the state championship in which the big fishes from Sao Paulo, Rio, Belo Horizonte, Porto Alegre, have to face really weak opposition and they always play the finals between them. For example in Rio. Flamengo, Botafogo, Fluminense and Vasco Da Gama have shared the title every year since 1966 when minnows Bangú won it. </p>
<p>Those state championship push the start of their Brazilian League to late April-early May (just when everything is finished in Europe).</p>
<p>Then all their stars leave in the European summer transfer market and most of the teams lose up to 75% of their starters. </p>
<p>Talking to a Brazilian journalist when I was in Rio, he told me the magazine Placar has to publish 2 Brazilian League Guides. One at the start of the season and the other one after the first half because of how many changes they have in every squad list. </p>
<p>Not good at all. But I prefer that to the system we have in Argentina. </p>
<p>One tournament. One champion. Home and away fixtures against EVERY rival. And the champions with the best teams go to the Libertadores inmediately after they qualify and not 16 months later.</p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seba - good rant about Libertadores qualification. I suppose it&#039;s an inherent problem when there is one Libertadores every calendar year, but two Argentinian league tournaments. Still, averaging results for newly promoted sides like Tigres is insane and unfair.

As regarding Seba Abreu earlier, despite being 6&#039;5&quot;, when crosses come in, he doesn&#039;t exactly attack the ball like a true center forward. In fact Falcao is a far more aggressive and effective aerial threat. A team of small, ball playing wizards like River with a giant target man center forward, I question the wisdom.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seba &#8211; good rant about Libertadores qualification. I suppose it&#8217;s an inherent problem when there is one Libertadores every calendar year, but two Argentinian league tournaments. Still, averaging results for newly promoted sides like Tigres is insane and unfair.</p>
<p>As regarding Seba Abreu earlier, despite being 6&#8217;5&#8243;, when crosses come in, he doesn&#8217;t exactly attack the ball like a true center forward. In fact Falcao is a far more aggressive and effective aerial threat. A team of small, ball playing wizards like River with a giant target man center forward, I question the wisdom.</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm...I&#039;m not sure I&#039;ve answered your question. La Academia was a nickname that was born because Racing was referred as a teaching footballing side for their attractive and effective style. 

It doesn&#039;t refer to a place or a site. It&#039;s just a metaphor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230;I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ve answered your question. La Academia was a nickname that was born because Racing was referred as a teaching footballing side for their attractive and effective style. </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t refer to a place or a site. It&#8217;s just a metaphor.</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/05/19/clausura-08-round-15-scores-and-scorers/#comment-1660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastalogolsiempre.wordpress.com/?p=1253#comment-1660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good question. One that would seem unbelievable if you judge Racing for their recent form. But our club won that nickname in the early years of football in Argentina (before professionalism). 

Among other feats, Racing did all of this: 

Won 5 official competitions in 1917 (the league, the Copa de Honor, the Copa Aldao (Argentine-Uruguayan competition between the champions of each country), the Copa Competencia (played only that year and beating San Lorenzo in the final) and the Copa Carlos Ibarguren (a very strange cup competition that was official). 

Won 7 leagues in a row (between 1913 and 1919) and 9 in total. 

Lost only 5 matches between 1913 and 1919.

Racing was the second powerhouse in the history of Argentine football and they took over from Alumni (the pioneers) when they disappeared. 

That and their attractive style earned Racing the nickname the current squad is not honouring at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question. One that would seem unbelievable if you judge Racing for their recent form. But our club won that nickname in the early years of football in Argentina (before professionalism). </p>
<p>Among other feats, Racing did all of this: </p>
<p>Won 5 official competitions in 1917 (the league, the Copa de Honor, the Copa Aldao (Argentine-Uruguayan competition between the champions of each country), the Copa Competencia (played only that year and beating San Lorenzo in the final) and the Copa Carlos Ibarguren (a very strange cup competition that was official). </p>
<p>Won 7 leagues in a row (between 1913 and 1919) and 9 in total. </p>
<p>Lost only 5 matches between 1913 and 1919.</p>
<p>Racing was the second powerhouse in the history of Argentine football and they took over from Alumni (the pioneers) when they disappeared. </p>
<p>That and their attractive style earned Racing the nickname the current squad is not honouring at all.</p>
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