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	<title>Comments on: To the last day!</title>
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	<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/</link>
	<description>More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at</description>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2995</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great story! Thanks for sharing it with us. 

I have to say it was the other way around here when it comes to European football (with the exception of Canal 9 showing almost every Napoli match every Sunday at 10 AM Buenos Aires when Diego was over at the San Paolo in the glorious 80s). 

Now? You can watch almost ANY European football match on a regular cable TV subscription. They are even starting to show the FA Cup, a tournament that I only got to watch live for the first time when *spit*Chelsea*spit* won it with goals from Gus Poyet in the mid-90s (I think it was against Spurs, but I might be wrong).

I&#039;m quite a fan of European domestic leagues and my favourite is the Premier League (with all the things that are wrong about it, it still gets my attention). 

I know some of you are bored about the Premiership and I guess I&#039;ll get bored with time. 

At the moment, I feel a little bit bored about the Argentine league. Maybe every domestic league wears you down with time, I don&#039;t know. 

One thing we will all surely agree on is that both leagues (Argentine and English) were a lot better in the past and what we are following now is just the remains of those fascinating tournaments in which you could remember the lineup of most teams as there were not as many transfers as there are today. Players didn&#039;t have money as their top priority and when you have 11 v. 11 playing more for the love of the shirt rather than for money, you get better matches and you attract more people. 

Am I being melancholic? Maybe...

I&#039;m sure I&#039;m not alone here!

Now Racing will ruin my Friday night with a sure loss at Newell&#039;s, aren&#039;t they?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great story! Thanks for sharing it with us. </p>
<p>I have to say it was the other way around here when it comes to European football (with the exception of Canal 9 showing almost every Napoli match every Sunday at 10 AM Buenos Aires when Diego was over at the San Paolo in the glorious 80s). </p>
<p>Now? You can watch almost ANY European football match on a regular cable TV subscription. They are even starting to show the FA Cup, a tournament that I only got to watch live for the first time when *spit*Chelsea*spit* won it with goals from Gus Poyet in the mid-90s (I think it was against Spurs, but I might be wrong).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m quite a fan of European domestic leagues and my favourite is the Premier League (with all the things that are wrong about it, it still gets my attention). </p>
<p>I know some of you are bored about the Premiership and I guess I&#8217;ll get bored with time. </p>
<p>At the moment, I feel a little bit bored about the Argentine league. Maybe every domestic league wears you down with time, I don&#8217;t know. </p>
<p>One thing we will all surely agree on is that both leagues (Argentine and English) were a lot better in the past and what we are following now is just the remains of those fascinating tournaments in which you could remember the lineup of most teams as there were not as many transfers as there are today. Players didn&#8217;t have money as their top priority and when you have 11 v. 11 playing more for the love of the shirt rather than for money, you get better matches and you attract more people. </p>
<p>Am I being melancholic? Maybe&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m not alone here!</p>
<p>Now Racing will ruin my Friday night with a sure loss at Newell&#8217;s, aren&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Gilbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately, I don&#039;t think many people in England had a clue what was happening in Argentine football during the 80s : ( 

For reasons that don&#039;t belong in this blog, I don&#039;t think the TV companies in existence then would ever have considered showing it to a mass British audience - in the most ridiculous piece of censorship ever, the BBC even dropped the opening game of the 1982 World Cup. 

A list of results used to appear in Match magazine during the 80s in the &#039;World of Football&#039; section, which is, I think, where I first read the names of Racing Club, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Newell&#039;s Old Boys and Velez Sarsfield and wondered what all these exotically-named teams were like! 

I think the true cognoscenti used to read World Soccer, which was a much more highbrow magazine than it is today, and presumably carried more information, but it&#039;s a bit strange reading about teams you can&#039;t even see, especially when I was a child and young teenager. 

British satellite Screensport &#039;adopted&#039; River Plate and Newell&#039;s in the early 90s, and I remember seeing a few exciting matches, as well as brief snippets of Copa Libertadores on the afore mentioned Trans World Sport (a very strange programme that combined the mainstream with the most oddball sports they could possibly find!)

I really got into futbol argentino when Spanish satellite channels started broadcasting weekly matches free-to-air to all Europe in 1994. I saw Claudio Garcia playing for Racing against Lanus, I think it was, scoring a great goal where he shielded the ball from a defender and kind of juggled it a bit before shooting in, and the passion and excitement of the crowd looked like exactly what was going missing from English football at the time (with the introduction of all-seater stadiums).

I look at Argentine soccer as having a little of the flavour that English football had in the &#039;maverick&#039; days of the 70s, sadly before my time... gifted individuals, small-town teams challenging the big boys, and exciting crowd participation (which sometimes goes over the top, of course).

This blog really does show &#039;the grass is always greener&#039;. That overblown monstrosity of a competition the European Champions League is being played right now, yet I haven&#039;t got the motivation to stay in front of the TV and watch Chelsea v Cluj, or Liverpool v PSV... it&#039;s all so predictable and dull. Yet I&#039;m fascinated by the Argentine game both on and off the pitch!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t think many people in England had a clue what was happening in Argentine football during the 80s : ( </p>
<p>For reasons that don&#8217;t belong in this blog, I don&#8217;t think the TV companies in existence then would ever have considered showing it to a mass British audience &#8211; in the most ridiculous piece of censorship ever, the BBC even dropped the opening game of the 1982 World Cup. </p>
<p>A list of results used to appear in Match magazine during the 80s in the &#8216;World of Football&#8217; section, which is, I think, where I first read the names of Racing Club, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Newell&#8217;s Old Boys and Velez Sarsfield and wondered what all these exotically-named teams were like! </p>
<p>I think the true cognoscenti used to read World Soccer, which was a much more highbrow magazine than it is today, and presumably carried more information, but it&#8217;s a bit strange reading about teams you can&#8217;t even see, especially when I was a child and young teenager. </p>
<p>British satellite Screensport &#8216;adopted&#8217; River Plate and Newell&#8217;s in the early 90s, and I remember seeing a few exciting matches, as well as brief snippets of Copa Libertadores on the afore mentioned Trans World Sport (a very strange programme that combined the mainstream with the most oddball sports they could possibly find!)</p>
<p>I really got into futbol argentino when Spanish satellite channels started broadcasting weekly matches free-to-air to all Europe in 1994. I saw Claudio Garcia playing for Racing against Lanus, I think it was, scoring a great goal where he shielded the ball from a defender and kind of juggled it a bit before shooting in, and the passion and excitement of the crowd looked like exactly what was going missing from English football at the time (with the introduction of all-seater stadiums).</p>
<p>I look at Argentine soccer as having a little of the flavour that English football had in the &#8216;maverick&#8217; days of the 70s, sadly before my time&#8230; gifted individuals, small-town teams challenging the big boys, and exciting crowd participation (which sometimes goes over the top, of course).</p>
<p>This blog really does show &#8216;the grass is always greener&#8217;. That overblown monstrosity of a competition the European Champions League is being played right now, yet I haven&#8217;t got the motivation to stay in front of the TV and watch Chelsea v Cluj, or Liverpool v PSV&#8230; it&#8217;s all so predictable and dull. Yet I&#8217;m fascinated by the Argentine game both on and off the pitch!</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam, you can use that comment with no need to credit me. After all...I took that information (and probably enhanced it a little bit) from Olé. 

What a team Newell&#039;s had those days! And the &quot;Mascherano&quot; of that side was none-other than our manager Juan Manuel Llop. What a warrior!

I used to support them in the Libertadores (despite Racing having a friendly relationship with Rosario Central and Newell&#039;s being close to Independiente at that time). It was a pleasure to watch that team. 

I believe the player that missed that all-important penalty kick was Berizzo (the other central defender) and now an assistant manager to Marcelo Bielsa in Chile. By the way...Bielsa was Newell&#039;s manager back then. 

It was probably the beginning of the end of Argentine football as I used to love it. 

Now I just follow it but I don&#039;t feel it&#039;s my number one priority.

Argentine football in the 80s? That&#039;s what I&#039;m talking about! Golden era for me (and the grown ups always told me it was better before! haha!).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, you can use that comment with no need to credit me. After all&#8230;I took that information (and probably enhanced it a little bit) from Olé. </p>
<p>What a team Newell&#8217;s had those days! And the &#8220;Mascherano&#8221; of that side was none-other than our manager Juan Manuel Llop. What a warrior!</p>
<p>I used to support them in the Libertadores (despite Racing having a friendly relationship with Rosario Central and Newell&#8217;s being close to Independiente at that time). It was a pleasure to watch that team. </p>
<p>I believe the player that missed that all-important penalty kick was Berizzo (the other central defender) and now an assistant manager to Marcelo Bielsa in Chile. By the way&#8230;Bielsa was Newell&#8217;s manager back then. </p>
<p>It was probably the beginning of the end of Argentine football as I used to love it. </p>
<p>Now I just follow it but I don&#8217;t feel it&#8217;s my number one priority.</p>
<p>Argentine football in the 80s? That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m talking about! Golden era for me (and the grown ups always told me it was better before! haha!).</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2978</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Gilbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I remember that Newell&#039;s side. They tried to win both Clausura and Copa Libertadores in 92. They won the Clausura, but weren&#039;t official champions, as in those days they had to play off with the Apertura champs, River, who beat them.
Then they got all the way to the final of the 92 Copa, and lost on pens to Sao Paulo. I&#039;m pretty sure Gamboa missed the vital kick, I&#039;m not 100% cause Copa matches weren&#039;t on Screensport and it was just a three minute clip on Trans World Sport, between log rolling and the Japanese snowball fighting championships... 
Oh the glorious days of following Argentinian football before the internet!  :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember that Newell&#8217;s side. They tried to win both Clausura and Copa Libertadores in 92. They won the Clausura, but weren&#8217;t official champions, as in those days they had to play off with the Apertura champs, River, who beat them.<br />
Then they got all the way to the final of the 92 Copa, and lost on pens to Sao Paulo. I&#8217;m pretty sure Gamboa missed the vital kick, I&#8217;m not 100% cause Copa matches weren&#8217;t on Screensport and it was just a three minute clip on Trans World Sport, between log rolling and the Japanese snowball fighting championships&#8230;<br />
Oh the glorious days of following Argentinian football before the internet!  :-)</p>
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		<title>By: hastaelgolsiempre</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2977</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hastaelgolsiempre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Imagine how I feel, Matthew! If I weren&#039;t starting to get money for all this football-following, I&#039;d be wondering why I let it take up so much of my time...

Speaking of which thanks Seba for the breakdown of the playoff possibilities. I might copy &amp; paste that comment (with full authorship credit to you of course!) into a proper post on the site later in the week because you&#039;ve probably saved me a good half-hour to hour of researching and typing there!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine how I feel, Matthew! If I weren&#8217;t starting to get money for all this football-following, I&#8217;d be wondering why I let it take up so much of my time&#8230;</p>
<p>Speaking of which thanks Seba for the breakdown of the playoff possibilities. I might copy &amp; paste that comment (with full authorship credit to you of course!) into a proper post on the site later in the week because you&#8217;ve probably saved me a good half-hour to hour of researching and typing there!</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2976</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Gilbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wish AFA would get round to programming week 19... I have an invite to a party on Friday night, but if Racing or one of our relegation rivals are on, I&#039;m may have to think of a good excuse not to go that doesn&#039;t offend... ;-)

And 23 Dec is our last day in work, and our boss is booking a meal out for the evening... if this thing goes to a 3 or 4 way play-off, there&#039;ll be one empty seat in the restaurant...

Just think, when this thing breaks up for two months I might be able to leave my computer and have a life back for a bit... only till mid February, mind :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish AFA would get round to programming week 19&#8230; I have an invite to a party on Friday night, but if Racing or one of our relegation rivals are on, I&#8217;m may have to think of a good excuse not to go that doesn&#8217;t offend&#8230; ;-)</p>
<p>And 23 Dec is our last day in work, and our boss is booking a meal out for the evening&#8230; if this thing goes to a 3 or 4 way play-off, there&#8217;ll be one empty seat in the restaurant&#8230;</p>
<p>Just think, when this thing breaks up for two months I might be able to leave my computer and have a life back for a bit&#8230; only till mid February, mind :-)</p>
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		<title>By: hastaelgolsiempre</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2975</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hastaelgolsiempre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a word, Ursus, yes. Newell&#039;s topped the &#039;92 Clausura and then finished bottom of the same year&#039;s Apertura.

Independiente have done it the other way round - bottom of the 2002 Clausura, they then won the 2002 Apertura.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a word, Ursus, yes. Newell&#8217;s topped the &#8217;92 Clausura and then finished bottom of the same year&#8217;s Apertura.</p>
<p>Independiente have done it the other way round &#8211; bottom of the 2002 Clausura, they then won the 2002 Apertura.</p>
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		<title>By: ursus arctos</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2973</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ursus arctos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 07:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not to rub it in, but I note that River are in sole possession of last place.

Has any club gone from &quot;first&quot; to &quot;worst&quot; since they spilt the championships?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to rub it in, but I note that River are in sole possession of last place.</p>
<p>Has any club gone from &#8220;first&#8221; to &#8220;worst&#8221; since they spilt the championships?</p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2972</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 04:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fantastic possibilities! I can&#039;t wait to see how it plays out. My money is on Boca&#039;s nerves getting to them again - even our bostero friends may admit they have not shown their famous huevos in the last few tournaments, including and ever since losing that playoff to Estudiantes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic possibilities! I can&#8217;t wait to see how it plays out. My money is on Boca&#8217;s nerves getting to them again &#8211; even our bostero friends may admit they have not shown their famous huevos in the last few tournaments, including and ever since losing that playoff to Estudiantes.</p>
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		<title>By: Seba</title>
		<link>http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/2008/12/07/to-the-last-day/#comment-2971</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seba]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 04:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hastaelgolsiempre.com/?p=2217#comment-2971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That said...I&#039;ve got some info from Olé on the tie-breaking system and the many possibilities: 

Two teams tied on points: 

A final match to be played on neutral ground on Wednesday, 17 December. In case of a draw, extra-time will follow and if they are still tied a penalty-kicks shoot-out to decide the champion.

Three teams tied on points: Many ways of ending the season with three teams tied at the top. 

San Lorenzo, Boca and Tigre all winning in the final round.

Or...all of them getting draws and Lanús losing.

Or...all of them losing and Lanús losing too.

Or...two of them getting only one point, the other one losing and Lanús winning.

How do they decide the title if there are three teams tied at the top?

Each team play each other once on neutral ground. 

Possible dates are: Wednesday 17; Saturday 20 and Tuesday 23. 

The order of play will be determined by a draw (in which we know for a fact that will have as a result a Boca v. San Lorenzo fixture in the latest possible date). 

This triple tie never happened in the history of the short tournaments. The only precedent was the 1968 Nacional. River, Racing and Velez (the eventual champion) finished with the same number of points and had to decide with three additional matches.

If after that three-way tie-breaker two or more teams are equal on points and goal-difference and goals scored, the decisive factor would be the results between them during the Apertura. 

Tigre would have the advantage over both, San Lorenzo and Boca as they defeated both 1-0 and 3-2 respectively.

Boca would have the advantage over San Lorenzo after they 1-0 win at La Bombonera in round 13. 

Four teams tied at the top: 

If Boca, San Lorenzo and Tigre all draw in the final round and Lanús win, they will all finish with 37 points and will have to face each other to decide the winner.

The dates would be the same as if it was a three-way tie but there would be 2 matches each day (Wednesday 17; Saturday 20 and Tuesday 23). 

In case they have to play a playoff, players will carry their yellow cards and/or their suspensions for red cards if they get those during the 19th round.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That said&#8230;I&#8217;ve got some info from Olé on the tie-breaking system and the many possibilities: </p>
<p>Two teams tied on points: </p>
<p>A final match to be played on neutral ground on Wednesday, 17 December. In case of a draw, extra-time will follow and if they are still tied a penalty-kicks shoot-out to decide the champion.</p>
<p>Three teams tied on points: Many ways of ending the season with three teams tied at the top. </p>
<p>San Lorenzo, Boca and Tigre all winning in the final round.</p>
<p>Or&#8230;all of them getting draws and Lanús losing.</p>
<p>Or&#8230;all of them losing and Lanús losing too.</p>
<p>Or&#8230;two of them getting only one point, the other one losing and Lanús winning.</p>
<p>How do they decide the title if there are three teams tied at the top?</p>
<p>Each team play each other once on neutral ground. </p>
<p>Possible dates are: Wednesday 17; Saturday 20 and Tuesday 23. </p>
<p>The order of play will be determined by a draw (in which we know for a fact that will have as a result a Boca v. San Lorenzo fixture in the latest possible date). </p>
<p>This triple tie never happened in the history of the short tournaments. The only precedent was the 1968 Nacional. River, Racing and Velez (the eventual champion) finished with the same number of points and had to decide with three additional matches.</p>
<p>If after that three-way tie-breaker two or more teams are equal on points and goal-difference and goals scored, the decisive factor would be the results between them during the Apertura. </p>
<p>Tigre would have the advantage over both, San Lorenzo and Boca as they defeated both 1-0 and 3-2 respectively.</p>
<p>Boca would have the advantage over San Lorenzo after they 1-0 win at La Bombonera in round 13. </p>
<p>Four teams tied at the top: </p>
<p>If Boca, San Lorenzo and Tigre all draw in the final round and Lanús win, they will all finish with 37 points and will have to face each other to decide the winner.</p>
<p>The dates would be the same as if it was a three-way tie but there would be 2 matches each day (Wednesday 17; Saturday 20 and Tuesday 23). </p>
<p>In case they have to play a playoff, players will carry their yellow cards and/or their suspensions for red cards if they get those during the 19th round.</p>
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